Is Joan of Arc Gonna Have to Start Breaking Fools?

I'm asking:

After a wife has respectfully appealed her spouse's decision—a privilege she should not abuse—she must accept his final answer as "God's will for her at that time," Peace advises. The godly wife must also suppress selfish desires (for romance, a career, an equitable marriage), practice addressing her spouse in soothing tones, and maintain a private log of bitter thoughts to guide her repentance. "If you disobey your husband," Peace admonishes in The Excellent Wife, "you are indirectly shaking your fist at God."

The popularity of her audiotapes and books, translated into several languages and used as curriculum by Christian women's groups, has made Peace a celebrity in fundamentalist circles, with appearances at conferences and Bible meetings throughout the world. But she's just one among hundreds of professional Titus 2 mentors, older women who help younger ones—as outlined by Apostle Paul in Titus 2:5—"to be self-controlled and pure, to be busy at home, to be kind, and to be subject to their husbands, so that no one will malign the word of God."

A couple quick things. First, this reminds me less of faith or even religion than it does fucking Pampered Chef. A whole cottage industry, Ms. Martha Peace has here, taking women's subjugation and guilt and selling it back to them all packaged up in a bow, while their female friends look on approvingly and talk about recipes. Yes, you need that vegetable chopper, and the audiotapes that tell you how to best fulfill God's plan while still giving your husband oral whenever he wants it. Sign on the dotted line. Host a house party yourself one day!

(Then again, I'm a girl who gets most of her deep thoughts these days from a show about hot space chicks, what the fuck do I know?)

(I also have a kickass chef's knife from Pampered Chef, just in the interests of full disclosure here. Cuts peppers like a motherfucker.)

Second, I would at some point like somebody to ask one of these women who makes a gazillion dollars preaching submission and helplessness to other women to please kind of explain the fucktardedness inherent in her scenario. I'm supposed to give her my money so she can teach me to be a helpmeet and comfort to Mr. A (who would likely be confused and frightened by this turn of events) and then she gets to climb back on the plane while I rub his feet and cook for him every night instead of most? I know critical thought is one of those feminist tendencies she ought to be able to help me overcome, but only after she answers the damn question already.

Which she seems to think she is, here:

Sensitive to charges that her busy career might contradict her message, Peace reassures audiences that she ministers only to women, and only under her pastor's supervision. Indeed, the Titus 2 movement finds its most prominent voices in the Kentucky-based Council on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood and a roster of conservative male theologians that includes John Piper, founder of Desiring God Ministries; John MacArthur, megachurch pastor of Grace Community Church; Albert Mohler, president of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary; and Bruce Ware, president of the Evangelical Theological Society, who caused a public stir last June when he told a Texas audience that domestic violence often stems from women's lack of submission.

Last I checked ain't any of those hoary old creeps your husband, girl, so ... no.

A.

Comments

[BlakNo1]

That so-called "show about hot space chicks" carries far more intellectual weight than this pinhead ever will, not to mention far better role models for women.

[drunken hausfrau]

Hey, A., are these the same wackos that have "spanking your wife" blogs and pamphlets and things? A friend of mine once sent an excerpt of one to me -- they all these "religiously sanctioned rules" about the whole wife spanking thing, and then they exchange stories online... it's basically S&M porn, IMO -- but it also rings all kinds of domestic violence alarm bells... also, makes me want to punch someone!

[Bella]

Welcome to fucking Stepford.

[BuggyQ]

Mmm-kay. So let me see if I have the whole Christian misogyny industry figured out here: We have a bunch of guys who think women suck (except when they're sucking), they want to get women to think they suck too, but they know that women won't be convinced that they suck unless another woman tells them so...so they find either a self-hating woman or the world's 15th best female hypocrite to peddle the message for them.

Do I have that right?

[hoppy]

I love it!! Being a man I have always known that woman was placed on this planet solely for my pleasure. And, I am ready, willing and able to begin living by my beliefs, long suppressed. I will demand my wife's subservience to all my needs. I will keep her at home at all times, in case I feel a need arise. I shall begin this new life...ah...as soon as one of you informs her of the new rules. Please, give me a days head start before doing that - I don't run as fast as I used to.

[mothra]

Fucking misogynist Paul and his fucking "advice" now used as an excuse to subjugate women. Why didn't Jesus come back to smack Paul around a little?

[Athenae]

hoppy, you are a national treasure.

You know, lost in all this discussion about what bullshit this is for women is the thought of the guy who thought he was getting an equal partner in the relationship and then one day comes home to The Excellent Wife. Who says he wants to be in charge of everything all the time, living now not only his life but his wife's for her as well? Do most guys WANT this level of control?

It sounds like a lot of work, and a lot of pressure, and he might not have signed on for it. Can he then command his new helpmeet to behave as her old self, stop making him martinis and pot roasts and shit and go back to work or whatever? Does it work like that? Can he command her to become a feminist? Maybe I should buy the audiotapes and try to live by these rules for a week or so, see if that's in the contract.

I don't know why I always end up focusing in on why this patriarchal bullshit demeans men, but maybe it's because I think until men start rebelling against it, nothing's gonna change. Which is itself a problem.

Or maybe it's because I project this stuff onto my own marriage and try to picture me getting interested in this shit and Mr. A suddenly being saddled with making every single decision for him, me and us (and our quiverfull of children, natch) from what kind of car we drive to what tone of voice I use to address him. It always ends in my head with him holed up in his office playing WoW and bitching to his friends that his idiot wife can't buy a loaf of bread without his input.

A.

[The Other Sarah]

Athenae,
I am sorry that your peace is disturbed by this money-driven confidence artist masquerading as a Christian, who sets herself up as a counselor to women to deny them the use of the minds and hearts God created in them on behalf of her patriarchal idols.
I hope that her intrusion on your personal faith is minimal and does not harm either your relationship with your husband or your relationship with God.
We have had among us always the power hungry and the deceitful, and we will have them among us always. If we find ourselves drawn aside to follow false prophets, our spirits and our lives suffer.
Be strong and forthright in your faith and your marriage. The Lord who sees in secret will reward you openly.

[Silver Owl]

When you purposely dumb yourself down for another you choose to make them weaker and ignorant as well. There is nothing more disrespectful.

I'm not into the whole "lie" to yourself and others because God is so freaking stupid and blinded by the penis he can not tell logic.

[liprap]

"You know, lost in all this discussion about what bullshit this is for women is the thought of the guy who thought he was getting an equal partner in the relationship and then one day comes home to The Excellent Wife. Who says he wants to be in charge of everything all the time, living now not only his life but his wife's for her as well? Do most guys WANT this level of control?...

"Or maybe it's because I project this stuff onto my own marriage and try to picture me getting interested in this shit and Mr. A suddenly being saddled with making every single decision for him, me and us (and our quiverfull of children, natch) from what kind of car we drive to what tone of voice I use to address him. It always ends in my head with him holed up in his office playing WoW and bitching to his friends that his idiot wife can't buy a loaf of bread without his input."

A, at least ONE genie has been let out of the bottle since the 1970's, and you nailed it: this idea that men have to scrutinize every single decision that women make and put their final stamp of approval on it, in a "buck stops here" sort of way, is no longer a viable thing for most people, and it's arguable that it ever WAS, if you look at what women have done throughout history. The ones who think that way are the abusive bastards who would grind damn near anybody under their heels if they could do it.

Now if only more women and their partners could effectively stuff this latest scheme to take money from people with low self-esteem down the nearest toilet and flush it...'cause this sort of crap won't make ANYbody's marriage golden.

[MapleStreet]

Although put in a so-called Christian wrapper, I wonder how much difference separates the need for Women to know "their place" from the need for those of color to know "their place". And the poor know their place, etc. etc. etc.

[pansypoo]

paul was gay. women icky.

fucked up woman leading the more fucked up.

[RAM]

And then there is Titus 2:9 which says: Urge bondslaves to be subject to their own masters in everything, to be well-pleasing, not argumentative,

Last thing a good Christian wife wants is a fucking argumentative slave. Slaves, wives. What's the difference?

[karen marie]

i can't wait to hear ms. peace talk about her moslem counterpart with whom she has had a long correspondence and developed a lasting friendship. amen.

[Interrobang]

Athenae, I think it's worse than what you've described. Anybody whose wife signs onto this probably (in the statistical sense) has grown up believing that women are stupid and useless and only interested in trivial things, and men are important and in charge. There are also "benefits" for the woman under this arrangement, which is why it's so damn hard to convince women in general to get out of similar circumstances -- she doesn't have to worry about where her next meal is coming from, she doesn't have to make decisions (and there are a lot of people, weirdly, who have this weird thing where letting someone else be in charge relaxes them), and there's no uncertainty in her life at all. She knows exactly what she's supposed to do, how. There are no judgement calls involved, either (and that relaxes a lot of people, too). These women also don't have the stress of worrying about their careers, or getting resentful of their husbands because of "second shift" stuff (they know he doesn't do any housework anyway, and there's no expectation that he will in the first place), and they don't have to worry about keeping their job skills or education up or anything. For some people, that can be a real attraction.

Plus, there's a ton of cultural pressure to do this, albeit in a less overtly Christian manner. Remember all those articles a few years back about the supposed "opt-out revolution"? There's also the intense cultural pressure to do the whole heteronormative married-with-kids thing in the first place, and still a substantial amount of pressure for men to "wear the pants in the relationship" and be the primary earner. (Compare and contrast the number of stay-at-home mothers versus stay-at-home fathers...)

There are always some ostensible upsides to every capitulation to the patriarchy. The problem is what happens when Godly Hubby decides to start tuning up on you, and your indoctrination says you have to stand there and take it, and/or the whole anti-birth-control "you'll have as many children as your husband and your body decide you will, up to and including the point at which you die from it," thing, and/or when Godly Hubby leaves you for the younger model, at which point you've got several children to support (and keep in mind, since you're no longer providing useful services to him, Godly Hubby is not likely going to be enthusiastic about the idea of continuing to support his children), no career skills, and no money of your own...

Yeah. This is why I think more women should opt out of the whole getting-married-and-having-kids thing. Financial (and personal) independence is indispensable, and maybe if more men realised overtly how terrified they are that women are going to stop having their babies, they'd be, uh, incentivised to change their behaviour.

[left rev.]

The fact that I am a senior pastor at my church and have da MENZ under my leadership would simply fry this woman's beautiful mind. Last I looked, we were still here, so God is certainly taking Her time getting around to smiting my ass and banishing my congregation into the outer darkness and shit.

I'd find this whole schtick terribly amusing if it wasn't so freaking harmful to people genuinly seeking to live an authentic faith life.

[Silver Owl]

Liprap you nail another excellent point about this philosophy that I find repulsive is laziness and sloth. Not to mention purposeful irresponsibility and behaving like child for her entire life by the "wife". A refusal to be an adult.

[Domino]

There is always something in Athenae's posts that makes me laugh.

Thanks.

[Elspeth Ravenwind]

"Titus 2"...!?!? I never caught the first "Titus" - unless they mean the comedian Christopher Titus...? Or is this a sequel to "Titus Andronicus"?

If I wasn't supposed to have a working, logical (most times), curious mind - why in the hell did the Goddess let God give me one????

Elspeth